Curse

wiz12268 · Mar 13, 2006, 11:05 PM // 23:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by oljomo

Hi

at 226 armour, your build is taking more than 4 times as much damaage per hit as my build, if you combine that with whirling, you still arent as good (whirlign still lets people hit 25% of the time), the difference being that a minus 2 while enchanted shield held by e effectively equals a minus 8 shield by you, big difference there, and if i got a -2 -2 shield d be stopping an extra 8 dama per hit on your build when serpents quickness is active.

And since when did spells such as aftershock or crystal wave, (which fit really well into this buidl) do no damage? Especially considering half the time the recharge will be reduced due to serpents quickness.

And then we get the fact that while spellcasters can cast horrid things like conjure hantasm/other armour ignoring damage, mine cannot ever be targetted by spells, meaning half the damge supposed to be dealt to the tank can just be ignored :O

Look at it again please and tell me how your build beats mine

(oh and btw have you ever tryed to keep one of those skills up agains tmultiple enemies for prolonged periods of time, sure theyre good to get you out of trouble, but you cant just stand there and take the damage)

oljomo

I was talking in a team format setting where you are taking all the aggro (book/gear exploit) Not in a general sense. So even if you went R/E and focused on Earth, with the spirits and the armor you have a built in 45 arrmor, so instead of mist form you go earth. That built in 45 makes up for the 4 extra attribute points. So you have the 45 and add it to the armor for the earth amgic. Ele start off with 60 armor, a ranger starts off with 115, that is a 55 armor advanatge just from the start. A ranger/earth ELE will have more armor than ELE/X with 16 earth.

Proably semantics as with a good team it shouldn't really matter.

But if you are holding all armor buff skills those damage dealing spells are an after thought. Since a tank can't cause damage holding the book anyways then it is of no matter.

I have played it both ways. Rangers tank like a mother when they manipulate the damage they are hit with, and are wearing the right armor. I mentioned the Earth ele skills earlier, they simply have way to long a cool down time, by the time they recharge you should already be through the next group.

Ira Blinks · Mar 13, 2006, 11:20 PM // 23:20

whats FC?

wiz12268 · Mar 13, 2006, 11:50 PM // 23:50

Well I would think Fast Casting, but that doesn't make sense.

SO I am sure it is a new skill with one of the new classes that is coming out. SO having it be successful isn't a surprise, give people a while or have a few nerfs done to it, and it will be just as useless as a lot of other skills in the game.

96TSi · Mar 13, 2006, 11:53 PM // 23:53

every now and then i like to farm SF with my E/N . even though i cant have 16points in curses 12 does quite well. Spitefull Sprit combined with a few elementalist skills and the energy eles have make em a valuable asset to any team farming or not. but because eles are becoming more unpopular the only time i really use my ele is if i am questing/farming with fellow guildies. I think people need to look outside of the more traditional builds and actually have some fun playing this game.

SS+meteor storm makes for some pretty quick kills. when they arent getting damage from ss, they are being knocked down and getting damage from meteors. my guildies love it when i bring her out when farming or just helping with some missions/quests

wiz12268 · Mar 13, 2006, 11:54 PM // 23:54

Well I would think Fast Casting, but that doesn't make sense.

SO I am sure it is a new skill with one of the new classes that is coming out. SO having it be successful isn't a surprise, give people a while or have a few nerfs done to it, and it will be just as useless as a lot of other skills in the game.

Unless itis Feast Of Corruption, then it isn't nearly as good as SS, since it a one shot deal and has a 20 second cool down.

Ira Blinks · Mar 14, 2006, 12:07 AM // 00:07

pua ftl :\

Count to Potato · Mar 14, 2006, 12:50 AM // 00:50

There really is only 3 professions involved in sorrow furnace, the Monk Healer and Bonder, the MM necro and ss necro and the tank, no place for an ele, and no need, on the other hand THK (Thunderhead Keep) is running low on E/Me Echo Nukers and Monks, so if you feel unwanted go there.

96TSi · Mar 14, 2006, 01:05 AM // 01:05

spoken like a true NEP..

castanaveras · Mar 14, 2006, 01:20 AM // 01:20

wow...i'm glad i'm not the only one.
I use to love my ele, but now he's just another pack mule.
I hope Factions will have better skills for my ele....

Bleidd · Mar 14, 2006, 01:56 AM // 01:56

First I'll say I haven't taken the time to read every post, so some of what I say might have already been said. And I don't see that as a bad thing in this instance.

The problems with the Elementalist class, in my eyes, are as follows:

1. Player mindset, i.e. the Sheep or Lemming mentality. A vast majority of the playerbase very obviously frequents either this or other GW boards. They see what people are using to beat encounter X, and plan their groups accordingly. That isn't to say it cannot be done another way, but by using a tested group composition, they seem to feel they have an easier, better, or more efficient chance of succeeding.

2. Pre-AI patch, PvE Elementalists were almost solely sought after for AoE DOT spells. This is very obvious to see as the majority of PvE Elementalists were then (and alot still are) Fire Magic builds. And there was no problem with that, because it worked. However once that was taken away as an effective tool as it was (and that is not to say it is not still effective, but any idiot can tell not as effective), the reason for an Elementalist being included in a group was lost as well. This is has nearly always been the case for Water and Earth Elementalists, and to a degree Air Elementalists.

3. With higher level mobs not as affected by the heavier hitting spells, which would be almost too heavy hitting in PvP, the DPS of the Elementalist drops to ridiculous levels. Between long cast times, exhaustion, and energy costs of spells the sustained DPS of an Elementalist falls short of most offensively-built Warriors. This ties in with my next point:

4. The use of snares is severely limited in PvE. Both the Earth line and especially Water line has a large number of snare-type spells. Currently the only practical application of snares is to keep mobs inside an AoE spell; if you exclude the Fire Elementalist and his AoE, you've no reason to bring along the Water or Earth Elementalist and his snares. This means dump them both, or take them both, and most groups are obviously opting for the former.

5. Because of the two above points, Elementalists bring neither sustained DPS or any appreciable condition-causing spells to a group. Therefore they are not seen as being terribly useful. This is a case where perception is everything, and Elementalists are perceived as a damage-dealing class, but one that doesn't deal a considerable amount of damage at that.

6. Elementalists and Mesmers share alot in common, mostly in that several extremely effective spells have virtually no flash and/or fanfare to accompany them. This makes it difficult for the unknowledgeable players to see exactly what the Elementalist or Mesmer is bringing to a group. No doubt many a Mesmer, Hydromancer, or Geomancer has seen his or her group proclaim how easy an encounter was, or even that they would have had a rougher time with the encounter without said Mesmer, Hydromancer, or Geomancer along, without knowing exactly how this was accomplished.

That's my take on it. I've been playing a Geomancer once I acquired enough spells to effectively run as one (that's another story altogether). And without attempting to come off as arrogant, I'm a pretty damn good one. I can Ward the whole group, knockdown multiple opponents, PBAE, spike, and toss so much armour on myself so that anything that hits me is little more than a scuff. But currently the bulk of the playerbase simply has no use for that at best, or no understanding of gameplay beyond "2 tanks, 2 monks" at worst.

Apologies for the rant, maybe someone can take some information from it. For the time being my Geomancer is shelved while I finish another character; the one quest she has left to complete she cannot due to a complete inability to secure a spot in a group.

dreamhunk · Mar 14, 2006, 02:05 AM // 02:05

This makes me wonder if anet even cared about the elemental class! Might as well delete the hole class.

SisterMercy · Mar 14, 2006, 02:15 AM // 02:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix Ex

Actually Necros COULD get into group if they go battery...

Actually, the game was live for several months before this was the case, although possibly sooner in PvP. Shortly after GW went live, I was picked up for PvP with a guild who'd requested BiP, and reminded me of my early suicide scare with it in beta.

I loved the build after that and played it for quite some time, but it took much longer before anyone realized the value of it in PvE (and a lot of the PuG PvP I tried later).

So necros weren't often able to get into groups, as earlier stated. But the point should be that while Necros should have been taken more seriously then, it's still not fair that Eles have lost their credibility now. The objective is balance, not a see-saw of ability.

Here's a better illustration of what I mean. Many other primaries are very diverse in what they can do, there are several good builds that are effective. We've pioneered Battery, MM, SS and Orders Necros (my own current fad is developing around FoC, we'll see if that turns into anything). We're developing Mesmer builds that people are starting to notice (Wastrel's Worry, Backfire, Degen, Echo, Anti-caster and I suspect that Crippling Anguish- and Migraine-based builds may have some potential). Rangers have trapping, Winter (for related areas of PvE), Dshot/Ignite/Marksmanship, Spirits and pet applications. Monks have Smiting, Prot., Healing, 55build and a Mo/Me saboteur is worth trying. Warriors have Stances, Axe/Sword/Hammer, Knockdown/Smiting (w/ W/Mo), Shouts, Running and some solo-farming options.

And eles... well, there's some Geomancer possibilities, and spiking still has its moments in PvP, but nearly everything else is greatly diminished. This was a relatively wide-ranging nerf. Many of the different possibilities that made eles interesting have been affected.

YMMV

tastegw · Mar 14, 2006, 03:58 AM // 03:58

eles may not be able to out damage other classes over time, but i do not think that is their role in this game.

the one thing an ele can do however, is deal more damage in a short amount of time than any other class.

combo #1

lightning orb + mind shock + lightning strike
4 seconds or so applied to casting, the spike damage timeframe (start and stop of damage taken)is in a total of 2 seconds and at 16 air, you have done well over 300 damage on your average armored foe.

combo#2

incendiary bonds + fireball + mindburn
5 seconds or so applied casting, the spike damage timeframe is in a total of 2 seconds and at 16 fire, your pushing very close to 400 damage.

combo#3

the old earthquake aftershock. altho rather tough to pull off against a veteran player, this can drop ppl like no other when applied with the right team based builds. again 300+ AoE damage (short ranged)

those 3 examples are very costly, but work very well when used correctly to help kill a single target with the help of a teamates assisted spike.

in a span of 2.5 seconds or less, the ele can dish out more damage to a single target than all other characters, this is the eles strength. lets leave it at that.

altho a hammer warrior can come close, but he swings to slow to pull of that much damage in 2.5 seconds or less.

axe warrior can also dish out very close to 200 dmg + deep wound in this time frame, but its much harder to acomplish vs veteran players.

altho i could be wrong as there are many combos in this game.

Cherno · Mar 14, 2006, 03:01 PM // 15:01

Too many people fall into the "perfect party build" rut. Eles are just as powerful as they were and I have very very rarely had problems getting into groups. Even if you are the "echo nuker" that people want if they take an ele. Especially in sorrow's furnace where there are greens on the line so everyone wants to keep it down to the lowest possible number of required players for the perfect build.

I still play fire as my primary line and can let out an asswhoopin. People complaining about AoE nerf just haven't taken the time to work around it. With very few exceptions most of the fire line is still very viable. The key is understanding the timing. You can't insta chain most aoe spells without causing agro break. Which is a smart thing.

Meteor Shower, while great, is not the end all be all of the fire line. I can't remember the last time that I used my staff to actually attack with, but I am constantly casting and maintaining high levels of dmg.

Can I outdmg an SS who has a perfect little aggro group who are all attacking at once? Nope, why should I feel I have to? It certainly doesn't make me a useless participant.

I run a double attunement fire spam build.

Flare
Immolate (or Rodgorts)
Fireball
Phoenix
Meteor Shower
Arcane Echo
Fire Attunement
Elemental Attunement
Res Sig

Echo is almost always Mantra of Resolve, that is before it got hosed with the balancing update. Haven't taken the time to go back to it yet. But prior to that I would only take Echo if I knew I was going into caster boss heavy areas where I run into few mesmers or interrupt rangers.

Immolate/Rodgort is also not currently on the skill bar anymore but may be my echo replacement for normal play.

The problem with echo nukers for me is that they spend too much time sitting around doing nothing. If you are set up to run 3 or 4 echo'd showers, not only are you running into severe exhaustion problems, but you are overkilling most mobs. Also casting time and high cost of the spell itself is problematic. I prefer the ability to not be the DESTROYER of the group, but a major contributor. Sure flare might be "n00bish" but it is a fantastic spam to fill in the quick gaps between recharge times on my other longer recharge spells.

Phoenix immediately followed by firebal = AoE break.
Fireball immediately followed by phoenix followed by the now recharged fireball = dead mobs. Sprinkle in a few flares in between if needed and a well placed meteor shower at the right time and you have a constant source of damage.

bizarresk · Mar 15, 2006, 10:20 AM // 10:20

thats 9 skills u got there

Pi_Numurian · Mar 15, 2006, 01:07 PM // 13:07

It does tick me off when all the people want for a 5 man oro is healer,bonder,ss,stance and mm.

Cherno · Mar 15, 2006, 01:10 PM // 13:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by bizarresk

thats 9 skills u got there

And I explain that in the two paragraphs that follow the list

oljomo · Mar 15, 2006, 01:24 PM // 13:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiz12268

I was talking in a team format setting where you are taking all the aggro (book/gear exploit) Not in a general sense. So even if you went R/E and focused on Earth, with the spirits and the armor you have a built in 45 arrmor, so instead of mist form you go earth. That built in 45 makes up for the 4 extra attribute points. So you have the 45 and add it to the armor for the earth amgic. Ele start off with 60 armor, a ranger starts off with 115, that is a 55 armor advanatge just from the start. A ranger/earth ELE will have more armor than ELE/X with 16 earth.

Proably semantics as with a good team it shouldn't really matter.

But if you are holding all armor buff skills those damage dealing spells are an after thought. Since a tank can't cause damage holding the book anyways then it is of no matter.

I have played it both ways. Rangers tank like a mother when they manipulate the damage they are hit with, and are wearing the right armor. I mentioned the Earth ele skills earlier, they simply have way to long a cool down time, by the time they recharge you should already be through the next group.

Hi

One major difference between yours and my builds here, mine has constant protectiong from all spells cast on them (so cannot have enchantments sahhttered lik e yours can, this means that mine is a hell of a lot more durable versus the typical groups in sf, where there are loads of mesmers with things like conjure phantasm/shatter enchantment.

And to the guy that said the only professions that are needed are necro ss and mm, monk bonder and healer and a warrior tank, what ahppened to ele nuker? It got replaced by ss nbuker, cos tehy were more effective, so why shouldnt a geo tank replace a warrior tank, as they are much more efficient.

And to the person talking about log recharge on earth spells, what long recharge are you on about, armour of earth can be easily kept on constantly, and it doesnt take much to keep kinetic up constantly either.

oljomo

oljomo

KM5347 · Mar 15, 2006, 04:11 PM // 16:11

Shyft The Pyro pretty much summed it up... ele's are mainly PvP characters. There are so many team setups using Elementalists, so don't let it get you down.

Hormus · Mar 15, 2006, 09:55 PM // 21:55

When i go to sf i run 4 ppl team me the bait and the monkies

Try using Meteor shower/incendery bonds/Meteor/renewal/rodgorts invocation/

or replace bonds with invocs